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Weather Discussion

Accumulating Snow Tonight

Posted 10 AM Thursday - Dave Longley - The battle lines have been drawn, and of course we're on the cold side of things.  This map shows the issue.  The temperature is the red number.  That's what you need to focus on.

You can see the warmth across the Southeast US and the cooler air over us.  Dividing those airmasses is a front that will remain draped from the Midwest, through southern PA.  Little impulses riding eastward along that front will bring precipitation our way.  Anything today will be light and spotty, primarily this afternoon.

The issue is tonight.  A cold front is forecast to move through CNY, bringing in some cooler air.  A stronger area of low pressure is forecast to move through Pennsylvania, spreading moisture into central New York.  The precip could start as rain, but everything should change over to snow.  The question on everyone's mind is how much?

Here's what I'm dealing with.  You always want to know what we're looking at.  I've got one computer model which has done horribly this winter, printing out the potential of 5 to 10 inches of snow (or more for us)  The most consistent information this week (and for much of this winter for that matter) has been consistently drier all week, but is now trending wetter, indicating 3 to 6 inches of snow for all of CNY.   

The snow that comes in tonight will be wet, with temperatures in the upper 20s to near 30.  Snowfall ratios will be on the order of 10 to 1 (10 inches of snow melted down to 1 inch of water).  Given that, and what I've seen for model qpf, I'm thinking 1 to 4 inches of snow through much of CNY, but 4 or more inches in the higher elevations across southern NY.  That's a bit of a range, but the time of year, along with the spread in forecast info I'm looking at, kind of forced me into that range.  Also, higher elevations will be a bit cooler, so as is often the case this time of year, the snow will pile up there a little easier.

One more thing to chew on is just how warm we get today.  We're already at 41 as of 10 AM.  If we get into the upper 40s to near 50 today, that may make it a little harder to accumulate snow when the precip first arrives. 

Bottom line though, I just don't think this will be a huge dumping of snow (despite what the NAM is showing) but I would expect the ground to be covered as we head out tomorrow morning.  Steady snow will taper to flurries Friday, with temps only in the mid and upper 30s.

More to come after I get a look at the new data.

Dave

Published Thursday, March 27, 2008 9:58 AM by dlongley

Comments

 

Nature's Little Acre said:

Wow, I just saw robins on my lawn and yesterday I saw doves! Sure hope we don't get ANY  more snow and the cold weather moves out. We all have cabin fever.
March 27, 2008 10:08 AM
 

Mark said:

Good morning Dave.  I read what you posted.  I know there is a possibility for some accumulating snow tonight but my question is how much do you think we will see on the roadways in the morning?  If the snow accumulates 2-3 inches on the grass, that usually works out to be a inch on the roadways this time of the year because the asphalt is so warm plus the amount of water content in the snow.  Then again, could it be possible we just see a wet snow/rain fall tonight over Syr?

Thanks
March 27, 2008 10:13 AM
 

jon ch said:

dave, no snow accumalation in onondaga co. unless its north country; [central square ] temperatures are warmer than your forecast ; please give up the snow forecast ; its april and time for spring weather ; if you follow channel 133 no snow in onodaga county . have a nice spring and summer ; i retire from this weather blog; [ps;the farmers almanac mirrors your forecast all winter which was 70 percent wrong] wheres that 6 inches of snow tuesday ;
March 27, 2008 11:19 AM
 

paul edwards said:

if the new info is 2-6 inches how come no winter weather advisory or
winter storm watch?
March 27, 2008 11:27 AM
 

Eric said:

I'm just curious... When you describe the computer models (NAM, GFS for example), I was wondering what those abbreviations stand for?
March 27, 2008 12:44 PM
 

Mike S said:

NAM: <b>N</b>orth <b>A</b>merican Forecast <b>M</b>odel.
GFS: <b>G</b>lobal <b>F</b>orecast <b>S</b>ystem.

There's many more to. Google for the penn state e-wall.
March 27, 2008 1:03 PM
 

kippy said:

Hi Dave, I am curious as well.. why hasn't a winter weather advisory or watch posted? What makes this storm different then the other's? Just curious.
March 27, 2008 2:05 PM
 

Jeff T said:

I'm curious.  As I thought back on the month of March, I don't remember us ever making it over 50 degrees.  Is this true?  Although we didn't have a real cold spell, it seemed we were almost always below average by 5 degrees.  How does this month shape up in terms of temperature?
March 27, 2008 2:09 PM
 

jmccor said:

please don't come out of retirement jon ch !! I have seen enough of your forecaster bashing. Yes temps are warm but by what 1 degree and maybe you will learn something about the weather someday and that is surface temp isn't the only temp to be concerned with. It will snow tonight and get this it may even stick !! Maybe the Storm Team should just go silent for a day or so and then lets see how you deal with the weather.
Keep up great work Storm Team you are the best in the area and I know there are thousands of people who appreciate it.
March 27, 2008 2:30 PM
 

dlongley said:

Winter weather advisories are now posted for CNY.  We do not issue those advisories, we only relay them.  The National Weather Service is responsible for issuing them.

As for the question as to whether the snow will accumulate on the roads.  The answer is yes.  Temperatures should cool into the 20s tonight, and since the heaviest snow will be moving in at night, we won't have the extra heating from the sun, so the snow will accumulate everywhere.  Given that the heaviest snow is expected from 2 AM - 8 AM Friday, it actually could be kind of messy tomorrow morning around here.  It will likely be a heavy wet snow, the kind that moves your car all over the place on the roads.

Dave
March 27, 2008 2:37 PM
 

Mark said:

Im confused.  The NAM shows the 5400 line (rain/snow line) north of Syracuse after 1200am tonight which would mean we change over to rain and it stays that way until 8am and thats when the bulk of the precip is east of us.  So many times this year we have been wrong on the changover to anything.  My guess is a slushy coating at best if it does change back over to snow.
March 27, 2008 3:30 PM
 

Chris said:

Accuweather who hypes everything is only saying 2.7 inches.  So it doesnt look like a big deal for us.  
March 27, 2008 3:32 PM
 

Chris said:

Channel 9's weather page says it wont even start snowing until 400am and lasts for 3 hours.  If you look at the 7 day forcast, the far left hand side on the top of the list says houry weather.  It also looks like its going to track to our south with us being on the northern fringe. On the hourly weather, it shows snow and rain mixed till 200am with temps around 32 degrees then over to snow.  There is no way we will see more than a sloppy inch.  Why is Dave L getting so excited about this snow fall!!!!
March 27, 2008 4:03 PM
 

dlongley said:

Mark--You're right about the 5400 line.  But in this situation, 1000-500mb is too thick of an atmospheric thickness to look at in this instance.  1000-850 and 1000-925 thicknesses are supportive of snow.  Also, we're below zero (Celsius) from just above the ground all the way up through the snow growth area.

This system is different than the other changeover storms we've dealt with this winter.  The main low will stay to our south, so we have no real mechanism to transport warmth into CNY.  Other storms have tracked to our west this winter, warming the mid levels above freezing.  That's just not the set up this time.  Quite a bit of moisture is streaking eastward through the lower Great Lakes, destined to arrive here.  There's going to be a lot of energy provided by jet stream energy aloft to work on that moisture to create some heavier pockets of snow.  As long as we cool the atmosphere tonight, we're in business for some snow.

You're right Chris, not a big deal for us, and our 2-6" indicates that.  As I mentioned above, elevation is going to play a role in this, with the higher amounts over the higher elevations where it will be cooler.  The fact that it's coming at night makes it easier to see some accumulation.  The fact that we haven't had much accumulating snow in Syracuse for awhile (only 12" for March) and some of the heavier precipitation is expected in the hours before we head out in the morning, you might need a little extra time tomorrow morning.

Dave
March 27, 2008 4:09 PM
 

sandy said:

Dave , downtown Syracuse being a little lower elevation do you think we will see any plowable snowby 7:00am in the morning
March 27, 2008 5:34 PM
 

Jim Teske said:

7:00 PM update....The precipitation that will reach central New York later tonight is currently over southern lower Michigan.  For much of the afternoon it was rain but just around newstime the reporting stations began to quickly change over to all snow.  This is with a pocket of strong lift in the lower atmosphere that we are banking on changing rain over to snow here in central New York overnight Thursday.

We kept with the 2-6" over much of central New York tonight but again, we wouldn't be surprised to get some higher totals in the hills south of Route 20 (roughly).  Accumulations here in downtown Syracuse are probably going to be in the 2-4" range. If the rain changes to snow a bit earlier than midnight we might get more in the city.

You may have noticed we did go with an area of 1-4" south of Cortland based on the models showing some warming going on between 5,000 and 10,000 feet in those areas.  That implies a bit of sleet.  We might be reading too much into this given the strong lift and cooling going on late tonight but the fact that there have been some reports of sleet in southern Michigan makes us think this is a possibility. We'll see.

The timing still looks such that the steadiest snow puls out at the end of the Friday morning commute and the snow becomes lighter after that.

By the way, for those thinking I'm looking forward to this snow I'm done with skiing for the season and I want to get my golf clubs out!

Jim
March 27, 2008 6:01 PM
 

sandy said:

thanks dave,I really want  to say Thank U for taking the time u do on this blog.
March 27, 2008 6:31 PM
 

sandy said:

sorry  i ment Jim
March 27, 2008 6:34 PM
 

Chris said:

Dave & Jim.  I know you are the experts but looking around everyone is calling for 1-2 inches here in syr.  Channel 3 states clearly only trees and the grass will see any accumulation.  They said that only a sluch on the roadways.  I think were still reading more into this storm for this time of the year.  I guess we will see whos correct in the am!!
March 27, 2008 6:53 PM
 

Robin said:

Jim.  I am with you.  Let's forget the snow and get the golf clubs out.  I am hoping that we don't get all the snow they are forcasting because I don't want it.  Thanks for the great job you do.
March 27, 2008 7:47 PM
 

LG said:

Chris....Channel 3 is by far the worse weather team not only in Central NY but  all the NE. Take a look at the awards channel 9 has received and take a look at channel 3's resume. David and Jim. Great work as always. Weather is not easy to predict, but you guys are the best in the business!
March 27, 2008 8:48 PM
 

SteveH (Tully) said:

Just measured 1.5" here in Tully at about 1300ft, but the temp is still hovering around 33F.
March 27, 2008 9:47 PM
 

ginjor said:

No sense in complaining, if it comes it comes.  We haven't seen the end of it yet.  Our winter has been to "nice", wait until we have summer or no summer!
March 27, 2008 11:30 PM
 

Mark said:

about a inch of snow on the grass and the roads are black.  32 right now.
March 28, 2008 12:55 AM
 

dlongley said:

2:30 AM on my drive in from Cicero, a very slushy coating of snow.  Temp was right around 32, with some slush on the bridges and overpasses.  I see Hancock has just dropped to 32.  After 7 AM things will start to improve significantly.  Heaviest precipitation is across the southern Tier with yellows and oranges, but I would guess we're seeing the changeover zone, with freezing rain in Wellsville and Ithaca.  

Dave
March 28, 2008 2:15 AM
 

dlongley said:

Update 6 AM - 4.5" east of Cortland in Freetown, 4" in Alder Creek in eastern Oneida county, 1.5" in Fayetteville.

Additional snowfall today 2 inches or less.

-Dave
March 28, 2008 5:04 AM
 

dlongley said:

7:30 AM Update - A little over 6.5" just east of Cazenovia, around 6 in southern Oneida county near Bridgewater.  Roads look to be getting a bit better, but watch out for that slush.  Onramps/offramps could be a bit tricky, and also higher elevation roadways could have some snowy patches.


-Dave
March 28, 2008 6:32 AM
 

Broken Snowmobile:-( said:

To all you bashers...
Started snowing in Tully (higher elevation) before 8pm last night. We have about 6" on the ground this morning. Looks like the forecast was right on!
March 28, 2008 6:41 AM
 

BC in Borodino said:

5 inches on the grass here in Borodino (midlake East side of Skaneateles).  Less in the driveway.  Started as snow last night before dark-no rain at all.  
March 28, 2008 6:54 AM
 

Luke said:

Hey Broken Snowmobile.  The forecast was anything but right on.  The forecast was for 2-4/2-6 inches for syracuse.  We got maybe a 1/2 of an inch to a inch in some spots.  The forecast should have been 1-2 inches for syracuse.  When people brought up those questions in the blogg, they seemed to defend there 2-6 forecast.  Well, as we all can see this morning, they were wrong.  Everyone knew south of us were going to see some accumulating snow but Teske/Longley/Eichorn all said 2-6 inches.  Also, Longley said temps were going to drop into the 20's.  Another error in there forecasting.  It never dropped below 32 all night.  But we all know there will be some defense behind that Hype.  I guess good old channel 3 was right.  The channel that everyone says stinks.  They said a slushy accumulation on the roadways.  What boggles me is that all the weather experts view the same information.  Same models. Yet there is such a wide range of forecasts.  Then again, as we all know, news channel 9 likes to hype up accumulations.  I love it how the next day they think that there forecast was accurate when it wasnt even close when they type on here like it was accurate because people in Tully/Caz recieved there 6 inch bogus forecast.  Keep your eyes open today.  Longley said it will remain overcast but channel 3 says peaks of sun after 12p.  If you look west of us, there are breaks in the clouds coming this way.  Why are there forecasts so wrong all the time.  There own website has a hourly forecast and it showed temps holding at 32 all night.  Maybe when you guys forecast, you should just start using that hourly forecast guide.  It seems to be alot moire accurate than your forecasts.
 
March 28, 2008 7:34 AM
 

Broken Snowmobile said:

Luke, I guess you've proved 2 things...
1. You are a better Monday morning quarterback than I.
2. You have too much time on your hands.

I thought they were saying 2-6 inches for the viewing area. I got 6" in Tully, and there was 2" in Syracuse when I came in at 6:30.
March 28, 2008 9:17 AM
 

Valley Girl said:

Valley section of Syracuse got 3" before it turned warm and compacted.... thanks for your expertise, Dave and Jim! And for your "backseat driving" weather forcasters - leave it to the those who went to school and studied this stuff!
March 28, 2008 9:56 AM
 

Broken Snowmobile said:

stay in the valley
March 28, 2008 12:41 PM
 

kathy said:

We had 6 inches of heavy, wet snow in the Fabius/ Pompey area last night and it's still snowing lightly today.   It's about 2:45 here and I'm not seeing any hint of sun so I guess channel 3 (gasp!) was wrong!!  I think I'll stick with channel 9!  :)
March 28, 2008 1:49 PM
 

Luke said:

Im suprised you get tv out there in Fabius Kathy .  Are u sure it wasnt cow droppings?
March 28, 2008 3:15 PM
 

docbud said:

Luke--

Kathy had a good point. What happened to the sunshine that Channel 3 predicted and you said was going to happen?

Ooops--I actually don't expect you to respond with a real answer as you are WRONG and so was your beloved Channel 3.

March 28, 2008 8:43 PM
 

Sandy said:

Did it snow?  I was stuck inside with my 17 cats, watching Opera re-runs and eating boxes of cheez-its.
March 28, 2008 9:44 PM
 

Brad said:

Come on, those of you that are giving the storm team a hard time this winter.  This winter has been a very challenging one when it comes to forecasting accurately with the storm track the way it has been.  The active southern branch of the jet stream always makes for a tricky forecast with any storm that lifts northward from the southern plains and no real arctic air was able to get entrenched this winter making for another forecasting difficulty due to the "battleground zone" for each storm often being over Central NY.  The storm team has done an excellent job this winter, winter where forecasting how each storm would play out was very difficult.  The computer models often had a tough time with each of these storms as well, but the storm team combined their knowledge from experience and did well, I think.  Certainly no other weather team in central NY did any better; I trust the Storm Team of Channel 9 over the competition any day.    
March 28, 2008 10:25 PM
 

Sal said:

I agree with Brad.  It was a very tough winter to make forecasts.  The Storm team did a great job and should be complimented for all they do.
Now let's start talking about when we're going to see some true springtime weather.
Usually by now, we see a few 60 degree days to let us know spring is around the corner. But this year, has been different...no sneak peaks at all.
WHERE IS SPRING?!
March 29, 2008 7:59 AM
 

Luke said:

Winter overall has made me a miserable sh**.  Sorry to all who were offended.  I was comparing ch3 to ch9's forecast just to be irritating I guess.  I have alot of Spring projects outside and everytime I hear the word "snow' it just makes me irritable.  Once again, sorry.  To Teske/Longley, sorry for being negative.  I can only imagine the crap you deal with from people like me giving you a hard time about petty things.  The reality is your forecast was right on.  To exit on a positive note, have a great weekend everyone.
March 29, 2008 8:32 AM
 

mack111299 said:

So,  Are we done with snow for this year?
March 29, 2008 9:42 AM
 

Bonnie said:

I sure am liking the forecasted temps for Tuesday going up and up!  Hoping to see some more snow melt!!
March 29, 2008 5:06 PM
 

docbud said:

You have a great weekend, too, Luke.

doc
March 29, 2008 8:02 PM
 

Bonnie said:

Is Monday looking like a washout or more scattered showers in nature?
March 30, 2008 12:35 PM
 

Forex platform said:

March 30, 2008 4:44 PM
 

kathy said:

Hey, Luke - It was nice of you to apologize - I'm getting a little cranky about this weather, too.  The cow dropping comment was actually very funny - I live next to a farmer's field and that's all I'm smelling these days!  But it really WAS snow that fell....     Oh, and if I wiggle the rabbit ears enough, put aluminum foil on them and aim the tv at the full moon, I can get channel 3, 5 and 9 on the ol' RCA.  :)
March 30, 2008 7:28 PM
 

Sandy said:

Sandy says ,your not Sandy your Kevin the crossdresser.
March 31, 2008 12:49 PM
 

Dean said:

Sandy do you have big boobs?
March 31, 2008 6:50 PM
 

Frank said:

Alright Dean!!
March 31, 2008 6:50 PM
 

Dean said:

Luke you sound like a puss_, are you a puss_ ?
March 31, 2008 6:52 PM
 

Jerry Brown said:

April 3, 2008 4:51 AM
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