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Weather Discussion

Will There be a Coastal Storm Monday?

Posted by Dave Longley - 10:15 AM Thursday - I've seen some discussion on here the past few days about a possible storm later this weekend and early next week.  We were a bit busy keeping up with the wind and warmth of the past few days.  I took some time this morning to take a closer look.  Here's what I came up with.

The Euro continues to advertise some sort of development along the coast, which it has been doing for several days.  Yesterday's 12Z was downright snowy for us with a strong low in New England.  That was the snowiest scenario I'd seen for a few days.  At times the Euro did get some agreement from other computer models, such as the UKMET and Canadian.

The other camp was populated by the GFS which developed a fairly strong low in the Gulf of Mexico and moved it through the SE US and off the mid-Atlantic coast.  High pressure over us would block that low to our southeast.  We'd actually see some light snow Monday and Tuesday.  Not from the coastal low, but from a bundle of energy in the northern branch of the jet stream.

So what's going to happen?  The 00Z Euro wasn't quite as scary as its predecessor, but nonetheless had a low that it moved from the Outer Banks of NC late Sunday into the Gulf of Maine by late Monday.  That would spare us the heavy snow, placing it to our east into New England.  The 06Z GFS model has followed suit and has a pretty identical track and development.  These forecasts would bring us a couple of inches of snow Sunday night/Monday.

Hot off the press, the 12Z NAM has virtually no surface low development in the Gulf of Mexico, and has a weak low well off the Carolina coast by late Sunday.

At this point, I'm leaning toward the "southeast of us solution"  I think the Euro is getting too amplified with things, both in the ridge that it's trying to develop in southeast Canada and the play between the north and southern branch of the jet stream.  These two things working together are helping to really crank up the low.  I just don't see the phasing of the two jets occurring, and the southern stream energy, while strong, stays separate of the northern stream.  There is no ridge at all over Greenland, in fact there's a low, and with the low there and a building ridge in the southwest Atlantic, the jet is screaming across the western Atlantic, and this prevents anything from turning the corner and moving north along the East Coast.  We shall see.  I'll be curious to see the 12Z GFS.  By the way, the 00Z UKMET and 00Z Canadian GEM were southeast of us.

Now, for you snowlovers out there, I know you're looking for cold and snow.  I think we'll be able to do the cold part, but I'm not sure of the snow.  The AO is forecast to remain positive, so that means no blocking pattern in the east and no snowstorm potential.  Meanwhile, the PNA is forecast to go positive.  This is a reflection of a ridge developing in the western part of North America.  This would be able to deliver cold through Canada and into the northern US.  Including here.  Without getting into specifics, I see a cold pattern and potentially dry.  For snowlovers, we'd have to rely more on lake effect snows than snowstorms.  One caveat to this.  If the jet doesn't set up too far to our south, impulses sliding by just to our south, while we're in the cold, could lay down a few inches of snow with each passing system.

We shall see what happens.  More later today.

Published Thursday, January 10, 2008 10:14 AM by dlongley

Comments

 

drydenmedic said:

Keep us updated, Thank You!!! A great Nor'Easter would be great
January 10, 2008 1:16 PM
 

dlongley said:

Update at 5 PM Thursday - 12Z GFS was similar to the 06Z run in taking a low off the Outer Banks late Sunday to near Cape Cod Monday morning.  The 18Z is still coming in.  The 12Z Euro still has a storm, but it's weaker than what's been indicated in previous runs.  It's location at 7 AM (12Z) Monday is well off the Cape Cod coast, with some light snow for us from the northern stream energy coming through.  Either of these setups could give us several inches of snow.

Now, the 18Z NAM is showing more in the way of low development off the Carolina coastline later Sunday and Sunday night.  That model run only goes out to 1 AM (06Z) Monday morning.  Hard to say if it makes the bend up the coast or scoots out to sea.  

Here's one other thing to chew on.  One other forecast tool that we use are ensemble forecasts.  That where we take a model, such as the GFS, and alter some of the physics and initial conditions in the model and run it again.  This is done 12 times and it allows us to come up with a mean forecast and we can look at statistical probabilities of whether events will happen or not.  Well, I just did a comparison between the 00Z and 12Z GFS ensembles and for snow lovers the news may be getting better.  Of the 12 members, more of them showed a storm along the east coast for 7 AM Monday in the 12Z run vs. the 00Z run.  In other words, more of the GFS members are latching onto the energy in the atmosphere and making something of it.

So what does all this mumbo jumbo mean?  The big cities in the I-95 corridor from BOS to Washington should be prepared for the potential of heavy snow come Sunday night/Monday.  The jury is still out on whether we'll see anything from the coastal, but certainly things are looking more snowy for us than they did 24 hours ago.

I'll certainly have much more tomorrow morning after TMN.  Perhaps even before if there's time.

-Dave Longley
January 10, 2008 4:06 PM
 

Wxmark said:

Very impressive Dave. I really enjoy reading your posts.
January 10, 2008 5:21 PM
 

coffeeguy said:

I have been reading the different post for a little while now and they have been quite interesting and informative. Thanks alot Dave and crew for pulling the curtain back so we can see how much is involved in the whole forcasting aspect.

I do have a question do you think that because you now have all these different computer models generating all this information that it gives you too many different directions and makes it harder to forcast?
January 10, 2008 6:06 PM
 

let it snow...Oswego,NY said:

that coastal storm would be great if it was a nor'easter...dont get me wrong i love the nice warm weather we have been able to enjoy last few days but...as we all know it isnt going to last forever as it is winter...and unpredictable weather can happen at anytime...but let it snow let it snow...
January 10, 2008 6:27 PM
 

Mike said:

Who here thinks the same thing is going to happen this February as it did last February (the lots-o-lake effect)?
January 10, 2008 6:53 PM
 

ssjdcc said:

oh yea. i have lived in oswego all my life. i know the snow we get and how it hits us when it wants.... we will see lots of lake effect, thats the TRUTH..... just ask ourselfs WHEN???? thats the question...... we all no oswego and what the weather brings to us...
January 10, 2008 8:03 PM
 

Amy said:

i would really love to see the snow...but as for you Mike if we get hammered like we did last year you better get to shoveling...lol...just kidding...i hope we dont get pounded like we did last year if so my husband and i have been talking about moving south...
January 10, 2008 8:09 PM
 

NorthBayLight said:

Good news for us snowmobilers! Keep us posted!
January 10, 2008 8:12 PM
 

Shawn said:

Dave L--Thank you so much for the informative update.  I love reading your posts and following the track of winter storms!!!!!

Maybe Teske will chime in tonight????????????

Thanks again Dave!
January 10, 2008 9:31 PM
 

jokerwilly said:

snow day ?
January 10, 2008 9:41 PM
 

fiske said:

sometimes  I  wonder  if  good  old gut  feelings should  be  used  more  often.
Dave tells  us  about  all  these  computer  models,  but  what  does  your  gut  say  Dave.
You've  been  in  the  weather  business  for  quite  awhile,  what  does  your  intuition
say  Dave
January 10, 2008 10:46 PM
 

dlongley said:

fiske- My gut tells me that the coastal won't amount too much for us.  We stand a better chance of getting a few inches of snow from the jet stream energy that arrives late Sunday and continues through Monday over us.

That's the gut.  Now the computer models are coming into line with that thinking.  They all develop a low off the coast, but it's much too far east to bother us.  Instead, a bundle of energy in the jet stream closing off over us Sunday night/Monday should bring a widespread snow to us.  Now my gut feels much better:)  I'll write up something after TMN this morning.  In the longer term, we're setting ourselves up for some potential big-time cold for the second half of the month.

-Dave
January 11, 2008 3:03 AM
 

fiske said:

Thanks  Dave.
I  am  big  fans  of  you  and  Jim  and  Dave Eichorn.
Sometimes I  just  think  its  good  for  the  meteorologists to forecast without  all  those  computer  models,  Old  school,  I  guess.
January 11, 2008 4:35 AM
 

Mike said:

Fiske--I'm not a "mark" for these meteorologists or anything, but, you say they should forecast "without all those computer models".  How exactly would that benefit better forecasts?  I don't think you have any idea how much it entails to make a forecast.  It is very easy for you to just come on here and read their blogs and look on TV and see the 7 day forecasts etc---Just think what goes into making those forecasts!!!!

Okay, I think today without using "computer models", I am going to make a forecast for you.  Today will be cloudy (b/c it’s cloudy right now at 5:45am), and it is going to rain (b/c it is raining right now).  How about tomorrow's weather?  Hmmmmm, well, I think we will have clouds, some sun, a little wind, and a chance for a rain or snow shower.  Temps will range from 20 degrees to 50 degrees.  How's that for a forecast?  Better?

Keep up the amazing work Dave, Jim and Dave!  We all are so thankful you come on to this blog and answer questions or give us a little "behind the scenes" of forecasting weather.  This is something extra you are doing for us, and it is GREATLY appreciated!!!!
January 11, 2008 4:50 AM
 

Sal said:

Sounds like the big time cold that dave talks about is coming on schedule.  Correct me if I'm wrong. but climatologically speaking, isn't the last week of Jan. typically the coldest week of the year?  Spring is just a couple months away.  It's amazing to me how these warm spells can really push winter along.
January 11, 2008 5:44 AM
 

Tom2 said:

Good morning- I have to fly out of LGA, will NYC be impacted by the coastal storm to the point where flights will be cancelled or significantly delayed or is this not a serious enough weather event?
January 11, 2008 5:44 AM
 

Todd said:

Mike, seriously relax, seriously! All Fiske was asking Dave Longley to do is put aside the computer models and go with his gut. As you can see Dave Longley did exactly that together with an excellent response which is supported by what the "computer models" are saying. You are reading much too far into his blog and taking the fun out of blogging for its intended purpose.
January 11, 2008 7:09 AM
 

dlongley said:

Mid morning update---I haven't seen anything new come in that goes against the thinking earlier this morning that the coastal should stay far enough to our east to not impact us.  Tom2, you mentioned NYC, it's possible they'll be right on the edge, so it's still too early to take them out of the snow equation.  As far as we're concerned, our snow comes from the northern stream energy that ends up closing off right over us.  This will mean some snow Sunday night through early Tuesday.  

In answer to Sal, the climatologically coldest time of year is the last 2 weeks of this month.  Then we're in the clear...temperatures start warming and the daylight really starts increasing.  I knew I should have gotten out and golfed earlier this week.

-Dave
January 11, 2008 7:56 AM
 

Patrick Dunn said:

Hi Dave,

I wish the AO would go negative and put some more snow on the ski areas.  While they are taking a hit with this rain I've talked to a few and they still have plenty of snow on the slopes at this point.  The cold helps as they can make snow and ideal snowmaking is usually temps in the teens or lower 20's.  Cold, dry air really helps crank it out.  I remember last year when it got really cold watching snowmaking plumes being made by a local mountain down here in the Preble area and I got some nice pictures of it.  There plumes made their own clouds as the wind was blowing them gently eastward, it covered most of the valley here.

Keep up the good work you guys do!
Patrick Dunn
January 11, 2008 12:23 PM
 

Shawn said:

Oh well, no big East Coast Storm for us, but hopefully things can get white again.  I'm sick at looking at mud!

Maybe a few inches Monday?
January 11, 2008 2:54 PM
 

YYZ said:

IF WE DON'T GET A SNOWSTORM I WILL TEAR UP MY LAWN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
January 11, 2008 3:03 PM
 

SNOW MANIAC said:

I WANT A SNOW DAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

PS: IF THERE IS NO SNOW DAY I WILL MOVE TO ALASKA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
January 11, 2008 3:09 PM
 

Confused said:

Am I stupid or is it summer?
January 11, 2008 3:12 PM
 

Smart said:

Dear confused,

YOU ARE NOT STUPID AND IT IS SUMMER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
January 11, 2008 3:14 PM
 

THE HATER said:

I THINK THAT THE SNOWSTORM INFO IS CRAP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
January 11, 2008 3:18 PM
 

I HATE THE HATER said:

HATER,

THE SNOWSTORM WILL COME SO DEAL WITH IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
January 11, 2008 3:23 PM
 

YYZ said:

Ok. Myself, SNOW MANIAC, Confused, Smart, THE HATER, and I HATE THE HATER have all come up with a conclusion. THERE WILL BE A SNOWSTORM AND THE SNOW HATERS HAVE TO DEAL WITH IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
January 11, 2008 3:29 PM
 

YYZ said:

One more thing. IF WE DON'T GET A SNOWSTORM ALL THE PEOPLE I MENTIONED IN MY LAST COMMENT (INCLUDING MYSELF) WILL MOVE TO ALASKA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
January 11, 2008 3:35 PM
 

coffeeguy said:

As far as the end of January being cold I remember as kid into my teens that every year Scouts had our winter berby the last weekend in January and it always seem to be Snow on the ground and rain coming down!
January 11, 2008 3:37 PM
 

jon ch said:

dave, why dont you move to the ARCTIC,or ANARTICA, then your love for snowstorms will be rewarded; meantime, accidents will decline and deaths will decline with our warm winter
January 11, 2008 4:00 PM
 

Mike C. said:

Pfft! People using my name so I look bad. I was not the one who posted 11th. I posted 10th. Just wanted to let people know so I don't look bad.

PS: Let is snow!
January 11, 2008 4:26 PM
 

Jim Teske said:

No drastic changes late this afternoon in the data that would impact our weather here in Syracuse Sunday night and Monday. The mid afternoon GFS (18z) still takes the main coastal low east of Cape Cod Monday night. It does bring the core of heaviest precipitation a bit farther west then the 12z model.  Instead of Long Island to Boston it is New York City to the Berkshires. Could this westerly trend continue on the models the next day or so? Sure, but my feeling is it probably won't. It looks more like an Eastern New England perhaps NYC/Philly storm at this point.  Additional support came in from the Canadian and European models to a track off of Cape Cod

As Dave mentioned earlier we are going to have to manufacture snow from a 'northern stream' system Monday into Tuesday.  This system is coming from the west and will be much weaker than its coastal cousin. Moisture is rather limited and at least initially the temperatures will still be rather mild. Still too far out to pin down any accumulation so I can't give to any specific numbers but I would lean toward a light accumulation for Central New York.

Have a great weekend everyone.

Jim

January 11, 2008 7:55 PM
 

Jim Teske said:

10:30 PM Friday update....of course as soon as I say that I don't expect a continued westward trend of the models the 00z NAM does just that.  It's not much, the low ends up closer to Cape Cod but it does print out heavy snow Monday as close to us as the Hudson River Valley and Albany. It does bear watching over the weekend.

That's all for now.

A slightly more humble Jim Teske
January 11, 2008 9:25 PM
 

Shawn said:

Thanks for the update Jim.  Maybe a little light snow for SYR out of this?

Enjoy your weekend!
January 11, 2008 9:49 PM
 

Shawn said:

Jim, I forgot to ask you, can we expect an update on this blog of the system over the weekend from Mark or Brandon?  I didn't know if you were going to be in the office over the weekend.  Thanks!
January 11, 2008 9:55 PM
 

Jim Teske said:

11:30 PM Friday update...New GFS is in and it keeps the heavy snow in western New England Monday.  Just light snow for Syracuse.

If Mark or Brandon don't chime in over the weekend either Dave or myself may jump in.  No promises, though ;)

Jim
January 11, 2008 10:39 PM
 

fiske said:

My  only  point  earlier  was  that,  Jim  and  the  2  Daves  have  a  lot  of  experience  in  what  they  do.  The  weather  models  seem  to  change  a  lot,  sometimes
several  times  in  a  few  hours.  I  just  think  they  have  enough  experience  to  look  at  the  winds,  the  jet , the  lows  and  highs  and  make  an  accurate  forecast  without  the  models.  I'm  sure  the  models  are  helpful  but  once  in  awhile  I  like  to  see  our  Storm  team  do  it  on  their  knowledge  and  experience  and  not  the  forecast  models.
Sometimes  I  just  get  sick  of  hearing  about  the  models,  thats  all.
January 12, 2008 12:54 AM
 

steve said:

lol "mark" i heard that somewhere......lets just get our average 120"or so, of  snowfall this winter and think spring,I think we half way there now ...
January 12, 2008 2:01 AM
 

Tim said:

Looking at a few prediction websites for snowfall for us Sunday Night into Monday.......They have us right on the edge of 3-6 here in Syracuse.  Was wondering if anyone else heard that?
January 12, 2008 4:48 AM
 

phil said:

i have to travel to boston on monday am then drive to long island monday afternoon.  Do you think the storm will cause driving problems monday in this area (boston to hartford to long island)?  Thanks for any input.
January 12, 2008 7:52 AM
 

YYZ said:

Dear phil,

THERE WILL BE A SNOWSTORM ALONG THE EAST COAST AND IF YOU ARE TRAVELING YOU HAVE TO DEAL WITH IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
January 12, 2008 8:30 AM
 

Tom said:

OK I'll admit it. I posted the YYZ, SNOW MANIAC, Confused, Smart, THE HATER, and I HATE THE HATER comments above to be funny. If we don't get a snowstorm I will not move to Alaska. But I do have to say, I LOVE SNOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
January 12, 2008 8:40 AM
 

Shawn said:

Not a CHANCE of a snow day Monday
January 12, 2008 3:08 PM
 

Mike C. said:

Tom,

I don't think you were very funny.

And about the weather I'm hoping it moves east and we get lots-o-snow!
January 12, 2008 7:19 PM
 

Tom said:

Dear Mike C.,

If the storm moves WEST we get lots-o-snow.
January 12, 2008 9:00 PM
 

Weather Watcher said:

Jim,

You guys are doing a great job! I check this everyday, just to see what might happen in the following week. The changes happen so quickly... it is awesome, and to be honest, entertaining knowing the changes the second they happen on this blog.

This is a treat and thanks for your opinions, updates, and really making the weather more understandable, even though it doesn't always do what we think it will or of course what we want it to.

Thanks for all of your time!

Weather Watcher...
January 12, 2008 9:40 PM
 

YYZ (a.k.a. Tom) said:

No snow day! THIS SUCKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
January 13, 2008 7:46 AM
 

Jim Teske said:

11:30 AM Sunday Update...based on the new computer models this morning it looks like the core of our coastal system (aka the heaviest snow) will fall from New York City up through New England tonight and tomorrow.  For those that have travel plans, the heaviest snow will fall in New York City between midnight and mid morning Monday, in Boston it's a sunrise to mid afternoon event. Hartford and Providence it's somewhere in between. Expect inch an hour snowfall rates with total accumulations 6-12" in these locations.

As for us here in Syracuse it still looks like just a light accumulation at best. I'll leave those specifics to Mark who has posted a snowfall accumulation map on our main weather page.

Meanwhile enjoy another 'mild' day here in Central New York.

Jim
January 13, 2008 10:33 AM
 

Shawn said:

Okay--Let's get it on....AGAIN.  This Coastal storm missed us, BUT, I've see some interesting models for late this week......DAVE OR JIM?  What yah think?
January 13, 2008 9:33 PM
 

Tom said:

OK. Time for me to get serious.

Dear Shawn,

I think that late this week heavy snow will be associated with a stong cold front because from friday to saturday we are expected to go from 30's to teens.
January 14, 2008 5:50 AM
 

Smiley said:

I would like know what your thoughts are for Thursday and Friday?
January 14, 2008 1:54 PM
 

dlongley said:

Hello everyone.  As mentioned, we missed the nor'Easter, but things are getting exciting again for the weekend.  I've started up another blog, "Waiting on the Cold".  Jim and I will be checking that out for this week.

-Dave
January 14, 2008 2:13 PM
 

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