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Weather Discussion

First Significant Lake Effect of the Season?

Posted by Dave Longley, 10:30 AM Wednesday, 11/28/2007

I knew that would get you reading!  Seriously, some factors are coming together that could produce the biggest accumulation of snow this season yet.  Of course, we're dealing with lake effect, which means localized snow, so not everyone is going to get snow and wind direction will play a big part in where the bands set up.  So, how do we get there?

Low pressure now moving into the Upper Midwest this morning, will continue to move east.  We'll enjoy a quiet day here, with clouds increasing this evening around here.  Remember, around low pressure, winds rotate counter-clockwise, which means our winds will swing around to the south tonight ahead of this low.  Temperatures early in the night will drop into the mid 20s, then we expect temperatures to start rising toward Thursday morning. 

We have some snow in there for late tonight.  None of the computer models we use to write the forecast have any precipitation in here, but I've been burned the past few weeks in arrival time of precipitation when surges of warm air are headed our way.  It's entirely possible that temperatures could warm enough so that when we finally do see precipitation around here Thursday morning, it could fall as rain.

That won't last long.  A strong cold front will blast through here midday tomorrow, with a second, strong front arriving early tomorrow night.  That will change the rain to snow.  There will be a lot of wind with this change to cold tomorrow.

We'll be cold enough for lake effect by tomorrow afternoon.  The average lake temperature as of this past Sunday was around 47 which means we need temperatures around 20 degrees at 5000 feet for lake effect.  We'll be there after 1 tomorrow afternoon.  We should see some lake effect develop over Lake Ontario tomorrow afternoon.

Now as to where it sets up.  Current indications are that we're going to see a west-southwest wind in the lower atmosphere over us, so that would mean lake snows will primarily affect the counties east of Lake Ontario.  Some light snows could come affect the eastern Finger Lakes and Syracuse area, but they'd be off of Lake Erie. 

Thursday night, we may see the lake snows off of Lake Ontario shift a bit farther southward, closer to Syracuse, but that should only be temporary.  During the day Friday, winds will once again shift to a more southwesterly direction, pushing the lake snows back to the north up near Watertown dor much of the day Friday.

By Saturday, winds are forecast to become more northwesterly, and this will shift the lake snows southward closer to the eastern Finger Lakes and Syracuse area.

That's the quick capsule on the events over the next couple of days.  The National Weather Service has already posted Lake Effect Snow Watches for the counties east of Lake Ontario for Thursday and Friday because of what I outlined above.

Feel free to comment on anything, I love the interaction.  Also, if you have any questions on lake effect snow, post them here.  I frequently check back and will be happy to chime in.

 

Published Wednesday, November 28, 2007 9:12 AM by dlongley

Comments

 

Chris Hallam said:

Dave,
I live in Lansing and I think we sometimes get own "lake effect" snow off of cayuga lake.  Is this possible??  

Just curious.
Chris
November 28, 2007 10:37 AM
 

dlongley said:

Chris,
Some new research out does indicated that some enhanced lake effect does happen south of the Finger Lakes.  I'm not sure if the Finger Lakes would be able to do it on their own, in the absence of Lake Ontario.  In other words, I think Lake Ontario plays a big part in moistening up the atmosphere, to make it a bit more favorable for the Finger Lakes to help enhance the snows.  

Great question!
November 28, 2007 11:43 AM
 

Mike S said:

Dave, snowfall totals? NWS has Tug marked for over a foot.

Also, tomorrow morning could you draw up a snowfall map for TMN?
November 28, 2007 12:43 PM
 

swinson07 said:

i live in oswego right by lake ontario... will there be any snow fall for us????? just wondering. thank you :)
November 28, 2007 3:07 PM
 

zigdig14 said:

Hey,
I live in Central Square, and was wondering if we should be expecting anything out of this event by friday morning? I know areas just north of here can expect but will it get this far south thursday night? I noticed that you said it might temporarly shift south thursday night. Looking at the wind charts for tomorrow afternoon through friday, I don't see the shift that you mention.
Could you please email me ,
Zigdig14@yahoo.com


Thanks Dave!
Jacob
November 28, 2007 3:09 PM
 

Dave Longley said:

Mike, I'd like to see surface temperatures a little colder for big snows.  Nonetheless, given the persistence of the snow band across the Tug, a foot is not out of the question across the higher elevations east of Lake Ontario.  I'll definitely get a map together for TMN Thursday morning.
November 28, 2007 3:24 PM
 

Dave Longley said:

zigdig14-
Jim Teske and I were looking at the new runs just before the Noon.  The 850 mb (~5000 feet) winds did show some veering to a 290 direction, but 925 mb (1500 ft) stayed right around 270 degrees (these directions are compass directions, 90 is east, 180 south and so on).  Sometimes that l290 degree wind can bring the band temporarily southward.  Honestly, at this point, I don't see much of a southward jog.   The shift to the northwest was less than on earlier model runs.

Maybe just making it into central Oswego county, near or just north of C. Square sunrise Friday.  Then it goes back north.

The big push south will be Friday night.  When that happens, it'll be a quick push south.  It might snow hard, but it won't add up much.
November 28, 2007 3:29 PM
 

swinson07 said:

hi dave. thought maybe you missed my post???? i was wondering if there will be any snow in oswego, i live around the corner from the lake..... any chance for big snows???? thank you very much :)
November 28, 2007 3:30 PM
 

Truckiebigdog@aol.com said:

Hi dave do you think that onondaga lake has an impact on the winter weather in syracuse.I was wondering about it.
November 28, 2007 4:29 PM
 

Mike S said:

Truckiebigdog: I'm not Dave, but my anything but professional experience and knowledge has come to that Onondaga lake is WAY to small to have an effect. Sure, it could act as a natural AC right on sure, but you get away, the only thing it offers is a nice view.
November 28, 2007 4:59 PM
 

Dave Longley said:

Sorry swinson07....at this point I don't see any big snows for Oswego city proper.  As I mentioned above, surface temperatures don't get all that cold, and I think the core of heaviest snow will stay just north of the city.  I do think you'll see at least some snow at some point Thursday night and then again Friday night as the band swings through.

Following up on truckiebigdog, Onondaga Lake, and Oneida Lake for that matter are too small to produce any lake effect precipitation.

Well, off to bed.  See you tomorrow for TMN.
November 28, 2007 5:45 PM
 

Mike S said:

Interesting how we all love using TLA's.
November 28, 2007 6:30 PM
 

swinson07 said:

thank you dave. i figured since we live close to lake that we would have seen a good amount of snow? isnt that where the most snow hits???? the lakes..... maybe i am wrong. you are the weather man... better than what i can say..... well i would like to see some snow. its time.... thank you dave.. good night... :) and thank you
November 28, 2007 7:02 PM
 

Skyflash said:

Okay I'm a late arrival to this thread but I'll throw in here anyway.

Living up here in Mexico, I'm not entirely thrilled about any significant LES
I guess I'm still feeling a little sore from last February ;) I'll take the current 6-8
the NWS is forecasting though. It's WAY better than 10-12 feet in a week.

If I can make it out, I'm planning on getting some pictures from both inside
and outside the snow band. It looks like we'll stand a good chance of being
right in the thick of it up here for a little while over the next couple days.
Maybe we'll even have thunder and lightning if it's unstable enough.
November 28, 2007 7:27 PM
 

Mike S said:

swinson07: Usually right on top of the lake (a few miles close to it) doesn't get anything that bad. Once you get past that few miles, it's where the worst happens.

The worst of the worst happens over higher elevations though.
November 28, 2007 7:36 PM
 

MO said:

How do the precipitation bands work around here?   We live over near Manley field house and we always seem to have deeper snow than they do over around Erie.  It's fairly confusing since back where I came from in the Midwest everyone has about the same amount of snow unless it was blown off.  
November 28, 2007 11:12 PM
 

Chuck said:

getting married and having reception this Saturday lots of out of town guest from up north how will traveling be for them coming in on Saturday
November 29, 2007 5:22 AM
 

chuck said:

oops forgot to say we are getting married in Mexico
November 29, 2007 5:23 AM
 

ssjdcc said:

hey mike s are you the weather boy???? just wondering! are you on the weather channel? i think i may have missed your face...... i thought dave l was our weather guy????
November 29, 2007 6:00 AM
 

swinson07 said:

oh by the way last year oswego got alot of snow in less than 1 week...... we had to shovel our way out... i dont belive just because we live on top of the lake that it doesnt mean we dont see HUGE snow falls... trust me oswego has seen plenty of snow falls. last year being a major fall..... so i cant belive all of the The worst of the worst happens over higher elevations!
November 29, 2007 6:43 AM
 

swinson07 said:

congrats to CHUCK on his wedding. hope the weather holds up for you and your bride and all the wonderful family... have a happy wedding... best luck and wishes to you... :) :)
November 29, 2007 6:45 AM
 

Skyflash said:

With a pretty long fetch and lift to around 10,000 feet it's looking like
snowfall rates will be around 1-2 inches per hour.
1-2 is doable for driving,but 3 or more can ruin your day if you
frequently travel from the north country and back.

NWS Buffalo forecast discussion is mentioning thunder and lightning.
I'm thinking about shock mounting my camera on the dashboard and
catching some video on my way home from work today,late afternoon
or early evening.
November 29, 2007 7:22 AM
 

dlongley said:

Hey Chuck,

Congrats on the wedding.  As we've talked about, the band will be heading south Friday night and should be south of, or getting ready to move south out of Mexico by sunrise Saturday.  There will still be some flurries and perhaps brief squalls in Mexico Saturday morning, with a gradual drying trend through the day.  

As for thunder in the band, there's been some talk about it here.  The equilibrium level is 10,000 feet tonight.  I like to see the temperatures up there just a bit colder as a go for thunder.  We'll see.  There is a pretty healthy shortwave moving over the lake early in the night.

Preliminarily, I would say Friday night might have a few flashes.   Equilibrium level goes back up to 10,000 ft and we are a bit colder at 700mb.  There's some extra forcing with the cold front coming through too, enhancing the low level convergence.

November 29, 2007 9:34 AM
 

dlongley said:

MO,

Welcome to CNY.  With cold air flowing over warmer lake waters, the lake provides heat and moisture to the atmosphere.  The colder the air the more intense that heat and moisture contribution.  The more water that air can travel over, the more heavily the snow will fall.  We get bigger totals off of Lake Ontario because we have the "benefit" of the cold air picking up moisture from all the upwind lakes, and, once the air travels the long length of Lake Ontario, wham, it slams into the Tug Hill plateau, lifting the air and wringing out the moisture that much better.

As you may be aware, you can get some intense snows off of Erie, but since it's a smaller lake and it doesn't have severe elevation rises right downwind of the long axis of the lake, you don't get the kind of snow totals that we can get east and southeast of Lake Ontario.

Also, remember, Lake Erie typically freezes over, while Lake Ontario remains largely ice-free through the entire winter.  We can get lake effect snow off of Lake Ontario right through the winter months.
November 29, 2007 9:39 AM
 

jason said:

dave i live in cicero are we going to see any snow around here?
November 29, 2007 11:41 AM
 

Dave Longley said:

Jason, we'll be right on the southern fringe tonight.  I expect some light snow to come in tonight, and I think I'll see some when I head out around 3 tomorrow morning.

Not big stuff though.  At this point, I think worst case scenario is 2-3 inches.
November 29, 2007 2:36 PM
 

jason said:

when will we see our first significant snowfall around here?
November 29, 2007 2:47 PM
 

amy said:

hey dave i live in scriba (in oswego) almost in new haven wondering if we will see any amounts of snow tonight or friday? just want to make sure i dont have to get that handy dandy shovel out just yet...
November 29, 2007 10:19 PM
 

swinson07 said:

friday morining.... a very light dusting of snow... nothing bad....
November 30, 2007 6:30 AM
 

Skyflash said:

Hey Dave, what are the chances for heavy snow over southen Oswego county tonight?
The NWS Buffalo is suggesting a possible Lake Huron connection,but no one seems
to be forecasting any significant amounts. I assume this has to do with the winds and
the timing after the frontal passage?


I'm hoping it won't be too bad around the 7:00-8:00 PM time frame in the Clay area
tonight,but hopefully things will hold off,or maybe any band that forms will have moved
south by then.
November 30, 2007 10:09 AM
 

swinson07 said:

just as dave l stated no snow for oswego... that he was right about! we saw nothing.
November 30, 2007 10:33 AM
 

MARK D. said:

HI DAVE, I LIVE IN CENTRAL SQUARE,WE HAD THUNDER AND LIGHTNING HERE FRIDAY NIGHT WITH THE PASSAGE OF THE COLD FRONT. I SUSPECT WE HAD WIND GUSTS IN ACCESS OF 50 TO 60 M.P.H. AFTER THE FRONT PASSED.
December 1, 2007 5:46 AM
 

swinson07 said:

high winds here on friday night.... very cold.... but again no snow for oswego..... :) good day
December 1, 2007 7:41 AM
 

ssjdcc said:

any snow coming for oswego with this big storm that is on its way? just wondering. thank you
December 1, 2007 5:00 PM
 

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