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Decision To Be Made At New Process Gear

Post By Dan Cummings - Let's not underestimate how large a decision looms in the coming week at New Process Gear.  Roughly 2500 members of the United Auto Workers will vote Wednesday and Thursday on their futures, and the future of the DeWitt factory.  Magna and the UAW have reached tentative agreement on a contract that slashes hourly wages by nearly a third, a blow softened somewhat by yearly cash "buydown" payments. Magna says it needs this contract and tens of millions in state and federal aid to keep the plant open and competitive.  Hundreds of "legacy" workers are almost certain to exercise their own options and leave the plant, anyway...taking buyouts, retiring, or "flowing back" to Chrysler.  
 
Magna's president has written the employees directly, apologizing for past mistakes in running the plant, and urging the union members to "trust and support" the company and this new agreement.  Many workers remain skeptical, even when Magna says it guarantees a 40 million dollar investment this year, on top of the 108 million Magna dollars funding those "buydown" payments.  More investment, new contracts, and a future beyond the new 4-year contract are also on the horizon, says Magna, if workers will "trust and support" the new agreement, the new plan for stability and growth.  
 
I've heard from a number of NPG workers who've heard promises before from Magna, and lived to see those promises broken.  They say when Magna bought the plant a few years ago, the company promised Chrysler wages through 2011.   That's not happening.  They say Magna spoke confidenty of large-scale investments in the plant, and those investments did not all materialize.
 
Magna president Greg Deveson is very much aware of the trust factor.  He knows he has to earn it back.  
 
I've also heard from a number of union members who say the new contract must be approved, to give THEM a chance to keep making a living, regardless of what the Chrysler legacy workers decide about their own futures between now and mid-March.  That, even with the wage concessions, the new deal still carries one of the best paychecks, if not the best, of any Central New York industrial employer.  That no independent auto parts supplier in the country pays more than Magna is now offering.  That faced with a plant closing as the only other option, the UAW Bargaining Committee did a remarkable job in securing these terms and conditions in a new, 4-year contract.  And, that for the moment at least...they're willing to take a deep breath, say a prayer and take Magna at its word:  that with lower labor costs, new investment to secure new contracts...and significant help from Albany and Washington, there's a good chance New Process Gear can once again be profitable.
 
There's no question Central New York will be worse off, should New Process Gear close.  But that question will not be settled by those of us on the outside looking in.  It will be settled by the 2500 families who must take the next several days to learn the details of their new contract, ask every question and have those questions answered...think, talk among themselves, look at their futures and the options now being offered...and vote.  The decision belongs to the brotherhood and sisterhood of the United Auto Workers in Locals 624 and 2149.  
 
I wish them wisdom and I wish them well. 
Published Friday, February 15, 2008 9:46 PM by PHRankin
Filed Under:

Comments

 

Looking Toward the Future said:

Here's a news flash. If you don't think Magna can or will close the plant, ask the people that worked a Miller Brewing Company, Carrier, Allied Chamical, GE, or any of the other plants that were in the Syracuse area. I worked at Miller Brewing Company and all we got was a 60 day notice and we were done. Chrysler and Magna told us 4 years ago there would be a cu in pay in 2011. When have you ever heard of a company telling you 8 years ahead of time your pay was going to be cut ? Now I work for  Magna Powertrain and I'm just as disappointed as everyone else that we didn't get what we were promised. I also realize that auto sales are down, gas prices are up, we're making about half the transfer cases we used to make, the economy is terrible, and there is no other game in town. I think under these economic conditions, UAW and Local 624 did an awesome job getting us the best tentative agreement we could have imanged. Can we trust Magna ? Time will tell. Look around people !!! Magna Powertrain is still the best deal in town. If this tentative agreement is accepted we at least have a chance at a future. If the contract is turned down we will have no future.
February 16, 2008 2:47 PM
 

sharon said:

Ditto, Looking Toward the Future. Add Nestle's to the mix also. Big corporations know years ahead of time on what plants will shutdown. Nestle's took $80 million dollars from the state and federal government over a 10 year period,when they were enjoying record profits. They always threatened to close when it was contract time also. Each individual will have to weigh the options on what is best for them and their families when they vote. Good luck to you all.
February 16, 2008 3:51 PM
 

Thanks Dan said:

Thanks Dan, I have always thought you were fair and unbiased in your reporting, and I still believe that to be true.

I still remember your reports about the Miller Brewing closing, and to paraphrase Fox News, I thought you were fair and balanced then, as you are today.

The decision facing the employees at NPG this week is not easy. But when all is said and done, the only choice is a yes vote if you want to continue to live and work in CNY.

Taxes and death are guaranteed, every thing else takes a leap of faith. I'm jumping!
Thanks for helping me make that choice.

Keep up the good work, you're the best reporter in CNY.
February 16, 2008 9:25 PM
 

lifetime CNYer said:

I've lived in central New York my whole life.  While I was growing up NVG was the place everyone wanted to work.  Despite the fact that it was the best job in the area I used to hear rumors that it was going to close as far back as the 1980's.  Throught those threats the UAW always stood strong and they got through it.  These union concessions may be nesacary to keep the plant operating and they may not.  Either way its still sad to see.  NVG will not be the premier place to work in CNY anymore.  That title will move over to the Anheuser-Busch brewey in Lysander.
February 17, 2008 2:17 PM
 

Paul Bartels said:

I have worked for, and am working for a machine shop supplying machine replacement parts for Magna. I have been through pay cuts before, which causes bankrupsy etc. They are 40% + of our work, so I'd like to see it the plant go on.
The bottom line is, working there is better than flooding unemployment lines for a number of years, or moving out of state, looking and waiting for that king of pay offers. Sure the grass is greener on the other side of the fence, until you get there.
February 17, 2008 5:29 PM
 

Magna Worker too! said:

Being a worker at NPG myself, I hope that the employees weigh their options carefully. Unfortunately, I do not get to participate in the vote that decides whether I will keep my job or not.  I am part of the management team. Our numbers are dwindling in the plant as well. Most of the ones leaving are doing so hoping that their foresight will have treated them well. So they too are not caught in the endless lines at the unemployment office. Remember the choice you make when you vote not only affects you and your family but many, many others as well. You can't possibly think all of the management team will go to other Magna plants if this one does close.We tend to be the forgotten when it comes to the media. Mostly because we don't have any more information than the workers.
Even if the vote passes and there is a large number of employees that leave, due to attrition or buyout, I think the plant will be crippled by the loss of knowledge and experience that will pass through those gates.
So once again I ask think carefully when you decide.Please.
February 17, 2008 6:08 PM
 

qwert said:

Solvay Paperboard is a great place to work in Syracuse.  Great wages, decent benifit and no union to give ten percent to.  We are a strong company that has made profit every year since they opened the doors.  Don't get me wrong it has not always been rosie but on a scale of 1-10 it has been a 9 or better for the past 14 years.
February 18, 2008 1:52 PM
 

concern citzen said:

i have been reading listening to Dan on the news are goverment has promise why doesn't our goverment make these big companies sign something to hold these people to their agreements and make them pay fines like it makes us taxes pay when we do not own up to our part how can their talk of hiring new people when the people already working do not no if their have a job their should tell people how many already want to leave or retire or to go with chysler so the other can make right choice and not lose what their have coming to them dan you should ask greg yourself to tell you the truth on tv so all of syracuse can here it from him not seond hand even better ask the real owner Frank Stronch who himself was a real working man like the working man and women of npg years ago when a big company like this one said something their stood by it their pride and interget depend on it their are many legacy workers who could be lay-off and not get the money as it reads now that is not far what are than to do if their real want to stay and are afriad of being layed off then losing both options of money and a job Greg how would you like this i feel sorry for these people their have work so hard and now this is the thanks good deal or not its not for everyone thou help these people Dan to get the real truth the union hands are tide then have to work other place with these compamies and near to keep a good repo with them
February 18, 2008 4:20 PM
 

Say What said:

"concern citzen" -what the hell are you trying to say ??!! I have not got a clue !!
February 18, 2008 8:11 PM
 

spell check again said:

concern citizen: oh my GOD, am I supposed to install the needed spelling and periods in your RUN ON SENTENCE? you may have a good story but I just can't tell. do you have some little kids at home that can help you when writing a letter?  It's hard to take someone serious that has not a clue in spelling and grammer as you.
I will say it so you will understand....

               u gots 2 go bac 2 skool ;o)
February 18, 2008 8:46 PM
 

hey said:

qwert: does your product cost the average person $ 18000-$35000? like a new vehicle. I don't think so.
February 18, 2008 8:49 PM
 

Update said:

In meeting, doug spoke on only 20hr Guaranteed changed. Your choice to go home, but can stay and they have to find you work, so you won't be in here on sat and sun straight time. WELL FOLKS, News flash, you better read the little section on "Alternative shifts implementaion". I seen this language at a prior place of employment. To put it simple, This means working 24/7 with out paying overtime. How may you ask, some places do the 3days on 4 days off, 4days on 3 off, some alter shifts. were you get one week-end a month off. "ALL STRAIGHT TIME FOLKS!!!
some just make your scheduled worked tues-sat, sun-thurs.This is one of many things your leadership did not tell you!! Doug say's you'll be in here on week-ends with overtime, well folks, "NOT TRUE", sound familiar. heard that plenty at sundays meeting. trust???????????????????
February 19, 2008 3:15 AM
 

qwert said:

Not my point hey. My point is that their are many well paying non union jobs out there that pay extremely well.  And just to hand the title of best place to work in Syracuse over to Bud is not right.  Take a look around.  
February 19, 2008 6:49 AM
 

On the fence said:

My husband and I are both employed at NPG, we still have not decided what we are going to do come March.  This membership should not even have to make this decision until 2011. One of us wants to "take that leap of faith" and stay with Magna, one wants to stay with Chrysler.  Maybe we should both take the money and run.
February 19, 2008 7:54 AM
 

worriedwife said:

someone from the real world said that npg workers were being paid to do nothing but push some buttons.  But let me ask u this if u were to apply there and get the job would u turn it down? No i didnt think so. Who ever may think that the job is easy and thats all they do should take a walk through the plant and smell the fumes that will probly end up killing alot of those workers.  So tell me does it make people happy to c that all of these workers have accrued bills thru the years that they could pay based on there pay, and now most of us will lose our homes. R u smiling? Well lets not forget what comes around goes around.
February 19, 2008 10:22 AM
 

teslasmomny said:

"On the fence" ........  God Bless ya!!  I'm stressed out with the decision, and my husband is the one who works there!!  I cannot imagine two incomes being tied up in that place.  I'm with you.....I think Chrysler is the better option.....Magna will close in 1 to 2 years, that's the ONLY guarantee you will get.
February 19, 2008 12:02 PM
 

HI said:

teslamomny: I use to be one of those duel incomes at the plant but that was not a problem a few years ago. Oh yeah we both still work there. She had an affair with a co worker of hers and she is still waiting for him to devorce his wife. We are all happy now. The many bennefits of working at the same place.
February 20, 2008 7:22 AM
 

MECHTECH said:

It is unfortunate that many workers will have to drastically change their life style and financial situation. If you look at the national rate for auto part factory workers you will find the 20 dollars/hr that Magana is offering is one of the best pay rates. Times have changed and the once prosperous company named Chrysler does not own the plant anymore. The economy is different today especially in the automotive industry. It is time to get off Chryslers gravy train. It you want to make 30 dollars/hr or more you need to earn you education like the rest of the work force has to do to be at those pay rates. I understand that people live within their financial means at current pay rates but, those pay rates have been too high for too long and it is time that someone puts a stop to it. Besides what does New York have to offer?  Magna has many other non-union plants where they can take all of there plug-in play equipment to and pay workers 10-14 dollars/hr for the same thing they are paying a New York worker 30 dollars/hr??? This shouldn’t be that hard to figure out. Why do you think contracts like the Ford contract was shot down??? The NY pay rates were too high. This is unfortunate for some, but necessary to become a profitable company.

February 20, 2008 2:10 PM
 

TESLASMOMNY said:

MECHTECH:   It is NOT about the loss in pay, as much as Magna is UNDER CONTRACT with Chrysler to pay our current wage until 2011.  We are all just beginning to prepare...paying off bills....and then THIS is dumped on our lap.  I have NO PROBLEM WHATSOEVER making $5 an hour, if I can feed my children, pay my mortgage, and drive an American Vehicle on that wage.  

And don't fool yourself by BOO HOOING for the POOR, POOR Corporations..........that make RECORD profits.....at THIS particular time in space, THEY have the leverage....that's all.  It will swing back in years to come.  

Sounds like you have a pretty lousy pay rate, huh?  Sorry 'bout that!
February 20, 2008 3:05 PM
 

Inside said:

I am a former Miller worker and was given one choice "THE DOOR" at least we have options here and we all have differant situations you have to do whats best for your family. 20 hr. is better than unemployment. Now that we have lost our legal services and TAP what is my 2 hr. a month going to go to? I'd rather see my union step up to the plate and take over these services! I think our members need these more than a golf tournament or fishing derby!
February 20, 2008 3:53 PM
 

CrAzY said:

Karma,  remember Karma folks....
February 20, 2008 10:18 PM
 

MECHTECH said:

TESLASMOMNY: I do not have a “lousy pay rate”. I am a salary employee for one of the largest non-union automotive companies the U.S.  I have an Associates degree in Mechanical Engineering, a Bachelors degree in Mechanical Engineering, and a Masters degree in Manufacturing and Mechanical Engineering Systems Integration. What that means is that I earned my six figure salary. No, I do not live New York. I am originally from the Syracuse area and once worked for Chrysler. I agree with you that Magna should hold up their end of the deal until 2011. After 2011 it would be hard to keep a company like Magna there where taxes, pay rates and business in general is more expensive. I suspect that Magan is attempting to let workers know by this ordeal that they probably won’t be there within the next few years.
February 21, 2008 6:28 AM
 

TeslasmomNY said:

MECHTECH:  I apologize if I offended you.....around here, most college graduates work at your local Wegmans!  Obviously, you were smart, and got out.  That is what we all would like to do, but we are waiting to hear our fate.  Either way, I agree with you....Magna will pull out of Syracuse....like every other manufacturer before them.  

February 21, 2008 8:29 AM
 

Ken said:

I have worked for three places where the Union drove up costs so high that the place went broke and shut down.  UAW is doing the same thing at NPG.  So now I work at a non union place and don't worry about a shut down.  So much for Unions.
February 21, 2008 1:15 PM
 

hi said:

let it be writtin,let it be done,contract approved ;o)
to all you UAW haters...DROP DEAD, 4 more years of HI WAGES in N.Y and more to come just down the street. I'll take fries with that and put the eggs on the top please ;o)
February 21, 2008 7:29 PM
 

bye bye said:

when its all said and done Magna will be gone .
February 22, 2008 7:17 AM
 

DECISIONS TO BE MADE said:

YESTERDAY IN EAST SYRACUSE AT THE NEW PROCESS GEAR PLANT A CONTRACT WAS PASSED THAT CUT WAGES FOR ITS EMPLOYEES. WE ALL CAN STAY FOR LESS MONEY OR TRANSFER OUT TO A CHYSLER FACILITY. WE CAN TAKE A BUYOUT OF 100 THOUSAND AND START ANEW. THIS HAS BEEN CALLED A HISTORIC AGREEMENT BY BOTH MANAGEMENT AND THE UNION THAT REPRESENT THEIR EMPLOYEES. IT WILL HOPEFULLY LEAD TO A PROSPEROUS FUTURE. THE SACRIFICES WILL BE WORTH IT IN THE END WE ARE TOLD. WE HAVE A COMPANY THAT HAS BACKED OUT OF ITS PROMISES TO EMPLOYEES OVER A FOUR YEAR PERIOD.WE HAVE A UNION THAT HASNT ALWAYS BEEN AS EFFECTIVE AS THEY COULD BE IN THE PAST COUPLE OF YEARS IN REPRESENTING THEIR MEMBERSHIP.  IT IS SUPPOSED TO BE THE BEGINING OF A NEW ERA. WE HAVE AN TROUBLED ECONOMY RIGHT NOW. RISING OIL AND MATERIAL PRICES. A UNCERTAIN JOB PICTURE. I APPEAL TO THE MANAGEMENT TO BE FAIR AND HONEST IN YOUR DEALINGS WITH YOUR EMPLOYEES. GREG DEVESON PLEDGED TO MAKE A FUTURE IN SYRACUSE. I ALSO APPEAL TO THE UNION LEADERSHIP TO PUT YOUR POLITICS AND AMBITIONS ASIDE AND START TO LEAD. TO ALSO BE FAIR AND ESPECIALLY HONEST WITH YOUR MEMBERS. DOUG ,YOU ASKED ALOT OF US IN THE PAST WEEK. IT IS TIME TO DELIVER.
February 22, 2008 9:03 PM
 

MAGNA WHO?? said:

It's time for some employees to open both eyes and see what is really happening. I am a recent casualty of MAGNA and happy to be off the sinking ship! How much more outsourcing has to take place before you realize that MAGNA and NPG will soon be part of Syracuse's past. Sure they were given money by the State of New York to improve equipment...do you think MAGNA really needed the State to "donate" this money to keep the doors open? They just don't want to waste their own money on a factory that they don't really want to keep in operation. They made it clear that NPG is the only plant that MAGNA owns that is not making any profit. Cutting wages is only a band-aid on a hemorrhage. It's a simple decision to make...take the money and run!!
February 23, 2008 10:19 AM
 

SCARAB said:

I just want everyone to know that Magna is doing what hey wanted to do in the first place. The Legacy workers are getting screwed over more than anbyone else !Do any of you think that Magna or the union are looking out for our best interests? They aren't ! I bet you didn't know that some union officials had their papers in before the ratification! The union knows a lot more than they are telling us !!They are just as bad as Magna! I found something on the Detroit Free Press sitethat might be of interest to all New Process Gear Employees! Chrysler has indicated that if new rounds of buyouts does not generate enough interest,it could turn to layoffs. At Chrysler, the deadline for most workers to sign up for a buyout has passed,but the company has yet announced how many sought the offer. Chrysler LLC is looking to get rid of 21,000 hourly workers. It had jumped from 18,000 next year to 21,000. Who is lying?  As far as the Intrnational goes, they have done jack *** for the workers at New Process Gear !! If you sit there and believe every word that comes out of Doug Haven's mouth , than you get what you deserve!
February 24, 2008 2:38 PM
 

SCARAB said:

I just want everyone to know that Magna is doing what hey wanted to do in the first place. The Legacy workers are getting screwed over more than anbyone else !Do any of you think that Magna or the union are looking out for our best interests? They aren't ! I bet you didn't know that some union officials had their papers in before the ratification! The union knows a lot more than they are telling us !!They are just as bad as Magna! I found something on the Detroit Free Press sitethat might be of interest to all New Process Gear Employees! Chrysler has indicated that if new rounds of buyouts does not generate enough interest,it could turn to layoffs. At Chrysler, the deadline for most workers to sign up for a buyout has passed,but the company has yet announced how many sought the offer. Chrysler LLC is looking to get rid of 21,000 hourly workers. It had jumped from 18,000 next year to 21,000. Who is lying?  As far as the Intrnational goes, they have done jack *** for the workers at New Process Gear !! If you sit there and believe every word that comes out of Doug Haven's mouth , than you get what you deserve!
February 24, 2008 2:42 PM
 

SCARAB said:

I just want everyone to know that Magna is doing what hey wanted to do in the first place. The Legacy workers are getting screwed over more than anbyone else !Do any of you think that Magna or the union are looking out for our best interests? They aren't ! I bet you didn't know that some union officials had their papers in before the ratification! The union knows a lot more than they are telling us !!They are just as bad as Magna! I found something on the Detroit Free Press site that might be of interest to all New Process Gear Employees! Chrysler has indicated that if new rounds of buyouts does not generate enough interest ,it could turn to layoffs. At Chrysler, the deadline for most workers to sign up for a buyout has passed,but the company has yet announced how many sought the offer. Chrysler LLC is looking to get rid of 21,000 hourly workers. It had jumped from 18,000 next year to 21,000. Who is lying?  As far as the International goes, they have done jack **** for the workers at New Process Gear !! If you sit there and believe every word that comes out of Doug Haven's mouth , than you get what you deserve!
February 24, 2008 2:53 PM
 

SCARAB said:

This local needs to stop lying to the membership! WE have got union officials telling everyone that the workers that left and went to Illinois got their timeback.I have just got off the phone with one of those workers,they said that our union is lying because they didn't get their time back and they can't get any answers from anyone in the union there! Our union knew what was going to happen to those workers before they left !! This union is held together by lies on top of lies.One of the biggest liars is going to retire in April. He is going to take the money and run, we don't need people like him in our union, with people like him, you don't need enemies!!
February 24, 2008 8:32 PM
 

SCARAB said:

THIS IS NOT HEAR-SAY, THIS WAS POSTED YESTERDAY .IF YOU WANT TO VIEW ALL OF THIS GO TO WWW.FUTUREOF THE UNION.COM .DON'T USE CAPS. MICHIGAN AUTO PLANTS ARE EXPECTED TO HIRE 36,000 IN THE NEXT FOUR YEARS. CHRYSLER LLC,FORD,AND GENERAL MOTORS WILL HIRE 36,000 WHILE UNDERGOING EFFORTS TO ELIMINATE JOBS AND SALARIED PEOPLE IN MICHIGAN OVER THE NEXT FOUR YEARS TO REPLACE PEOPLE WHO ARE TAKING BUYOUTS OR RETIRING,A STUDY FROM THE CENTER FOR AUTOMOTIVE RESEARCH SAID. THE NEW ,NONASSEMBLY JOBS WILL PAY $14 AN HOUR, ABOUT HALF OF WHAT AUTOMOTIVE JOBS HAVE PAID,AND THEY WON'T INCLUDE RETIREE HEALTH CARE BENEFITS OR A DEFINED POSITION. THE LOWER RATE FOR SO-CALLED NONASSEMBLY POSITIONS IS ALLOWED UNDER THE LABOR AGREEMENTS APPROVED BY THE UAW AND AUTOMAKERS LAST YEAR!!
February 25, 2008 5:59 AM
 

SCARAB said:

Don't expect anything from Doug Havens ! He is another one that only carews abot himself and family,to hell with everyone else ! All the workers at New Process Gear have been lied to by Doug Havens. These so-called flowbacks are all lies. Did Magna change the date that the workers had to let Magna aware of their intentions ? If not , they are probably goinbg to have a layoff !Doug has got diarhea of the mouth ! You don't have to hear him , you can smell him,!
February 25, 2008 8:08 AM
 

Scarab the Idiot said:

Scarab , why don't you just shut up , go away and get a life ! Do you send all these E-mails on company time. Another dead beat at the plant .!!!
February 27, 2008 1:39 PM
 

scarab is an idiot said:

Ditto.   Shut up scarab, take the 100K and get out of our plant!
February 27, 2008 5:45 PM
 

SCARAB said:

I am not the idiot,by the sounds of it ,you are a union kiss a-- that doesn't have a clue as to what goes on in that plant. By the way ,it isn't your plant. You have it easy there today ,you wouldn't or couldn't handle it the way it was ! We are the onesa that made sure that their were jobs to be had today ! WHAT HAVE YOU DONE ?  Are you one of the junk riunners that the union protects ? People like you need to get a life.I at least know what is going on behind my back ! I at least back what I say with truth ,that is something that the union cannot grasp ,neither can you !! Go back to your baby bottle!
March 2, 2008 12:08 PM
 

Scarab justifies being a idiot !! said:

so now your sitting at your desk sucking up probably double time playing on the internet , company time .  Way to scam the company !!
March 3, 2008 6:06 AM
 

scarab said:

I am glad to see that some people still continue to wear blinders regarding Magna and the Union. I am not on company time,if you don't write anything of importance ,don't waste the space ! You are probably one of the workers that is a junk runner that the union and management covers. I havea life ,and I am far from a dead beat ! Yopu idiots that are taking the union's and management word for things are the IDIOTS  here .By the way ,this isn't YOUR plant ! If I don't know what Iam talking about,then you tell me why Magna has opened the contract again ? What is going to happen at the plant is not in the workers best interests! The workers that are going to flow-back are getting screwed and they have Magna employees to blame for it ! If you did know ANYTHING at all about the auto industry ,it is SOLIDARITY ! There is no solidarity in that plant ,especially with the new Magna Employees. They are the idiots that voted for this contract ! The Legacy employees are getting screwed because the idiots there don't know what the meaning of Solidarity is ! You think that because you are supposed to get $100,0000 that that is going to benefit you ! Think again! Add the bonus to your pay,you will be taxed on it before you get it ,and you will be taxed on it at the end of the year,so you tell me ,what did you really get ? How does the bone feel ? Who is the IDIOT ?
March 16, 2008 10:46 AM
 

Andrew said:

Scarab , I don't work in the plant at all .  But your still an Idiot , shut up and go away! Suck hole !!
March 19, 2008 11:41 AM
 

scarab said:

Andrew ,if you don't know anything about what is going on in this world.you are the SUCK HOLE ! I am not an idiot,I just don't listen to any of the bull that is dished out,unlike yourself. If you don't work there ,why are you reading something that doesn't concern you?  That is the idiot. Andrew the Trouble maker !
March 22, 2008 9:39 AM
 

Andrew said:

scarab , your plant doesn't like you , I don't like you and your momma doesn't like you . Do the plant a favor and go lay down in a field and die like a dog !   :{  To the others in the plant - good luck  !
March 28, 2008 8:25 AM
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